From Wed Nov 19 14:15:44 1997
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:23:58 +0000
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: “Floyd B. Mack”
>Subject: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.01
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>This came up from the depths:
> >>From Janes Defense Weekly, 5 Nov 1997:
> >
> >”Prime Minister Bartholomew Uluf’alu of the Solomon Islands
> >has appealed to the USA and Japan for assistance to clean up
> >the wreckage of more than 50 warship sunk nears the islands
> >during the battle of Guadalcanal and other WWII battles.”
> >
>
>Hmmm, unless the hulks are rusting above the low tide mark, or pose a
>threat to navigation and fishing, why bother? If they are within sport
>diving range, let the divers enjoy them. If they are below that, leave
>them be.
>
>Cheers,
>Floyd B. Mack
>Southern Yankee in Britain

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From Wed Nov 19 17:00:48 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:30:19 +0930
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: Tom Lewis
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>According to an article in this week’s Navy News (Australia), the hulks are
>leaking oil and killing off local fishlife and coral. The government there
>are appealling to the governments who “own” the ships for help.
>
>Tom Lewis, Lieutenant
>Maritime Historian,
>Headquarters Northern Command,
>Darwin, Northern Territory,
>Australia 0800.
>
>Ph: 08 89 802552 (b), 08 89 451123(h), fax: 08 89 455130
>Mailto:lewist@peg.apc.org
>
>
> >This came up from the depths:
> >>>From Janes Defense Weekly, 5 Nov 1997:
> >>
> >>”Prime Minister Bartholomew Uluf’alu of the Solomon Islands
> >>has appealed to the USA and Japan for assistance to clean up
> >>the wreckage of more than 50 warship sunk nears the islands
> >>during the battle of Guadalcanal and other WWII battles.”
> >>
> >
> >Hmmm, unless the hulks are rusting above the low tide mark, or pose a
> >threat to navigation and fishing, why bother? If they are within sport
> >diving range, let the divers enjoy them. If they are below that, leave
> >them be.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Floyd B. Mack
> >Southern Yankee in Britain

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From Wed Nov 19 17:13:51 1997
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:13:41 -0800 (PST)
>From: Tracy Johnson
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Floyd B. Mack wrote:
>
> > Hmmm, unless the hulks are rusting above the low tide mark, or pose a
> > threat to navigation and fishing, why bother? If they are within sport
> > diving range, let the divers enjoy them. If they are below that, leave
> > them be.
>
>The deep ones could be a good source of uncontaminated iron & steel that
>hasn’t been hit by atmospheric radiation since the explosion of the first
>atom bomb. It would be the same type of source they been using from the
>German ships scuttled at Scapa Flow.
>
>Tracy Johnson
>Computer Associates International Inc.
>(Opinions expressed on public forums
>such as list-servers are mine and are
>not representative of my employer.)
>- – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
>(For interactive games…)
>Minister of Propaganda, Justin Thyme Productions
>tjohnson@adnetsol.com
>”Semper Pollus”
> ADC-2239-5531

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From Wed Nov 19 17:55:02 1997
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:52:43 -0800
>From: Mike Potter
>Organization: Artecon, Inc.
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>This might be insoluble. Warship wrecks contain not only dense oil but
>also lots of deteriorating ammunition. Jostling a wreck might set some
>of it off.
>
>When they capsized, HMS =Audacious= and HMS =Barham= both suffered
>magazine explosions. I would think the phenomenon resulted from shell
>movement, although it might be unique to 1914-era British ammunition.
>
>Was potential shifting of ammunition a consideration in the salvage of
>wrecks such as USS Oklahoma from Pearl Harbor? Has Norway, even with
>national wealth and a lot of maritime engineering expertise, ever
>figured out how to deal with the Nazi heavy cruiser =Blucher= on the
>bottom of Oslofjord?
>
>Tom Lewis wrote:
> >
> > According to an article in this week’s Navy News (Australia), the hulks are
> > leaking oil and killing off local fishlife and coral. The government there
> > are appealling to the governments who “own” the ships for help.
> >
> > Tom Lewis, Lieutenant
> > Maritime Historian,
> > Headquarters Northern Command,
> > Darwin, Northern Territory,
> > Australia 0800.
> >
> > Ph: 08 89 802552 (b), 08 89 451123(h), fax: 08 89 455130
> > Mailto:lewist@peg.apc.org
> >
> > >This came up from the depths:
> > >>>From Janes Defense Weekly, 5 Nov 1997:
> > >>
> > >>”Prime Minister Bartholomew Uluf’alu of the Solomon Islands
> > >>has appealed to the USA and Japan for assistance to clean up
> > >>the wreckage of more than 50 warship sunk nears the islands
> > >>during the battle of Guadalcanal and other WWII battles.”

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From Wed Nov 19 21:58:00 1997
>Comments: Authenticated sender is
>From: “James H. E. Maugham”
>Organization: J.H.E. Maugham & Associates, Inc.
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:59:53 -0500
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Priority: normal
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>On 19 Nov 97 at 22:25, Tom Robison wrote:
>
> > This brings up the age old question, who “owns” old wrecks. Once a wreck is
> > abandoned in international waters, it is fair game for salvage.
>
>Naval vessels are never abandoned and, by international agreement, remain the
>property of their country in perpetuity as military graves.
>
>Regards,
>
>James
>
>Share the Technology Computer Recycling Project
>http://www.voicenet.com/~cranmer/recycling.html

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From Thu Nov 20 01:18:00 1997
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>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:17:38 -0500 (EST)
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>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: rickt@cris.com (Eric Bergerud)
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
> >
> >Still sounds to me like a scam to fleece Uncle Sugar. How much oil can be
> >leaking? Yes, I know, the Arizona is still fouling Pearl Harbor, but how
> >serious can the pollution problem be in The Slot?
> >
> >
> >
> >Tom Robison
> >Ossian, Indiana
> >tcrobi@mindspring.com
> >
> >
>As it happens I talked about coral in the SOPAC with one of the bigwigs at
>UC Berkeley last year and he tells me that experts are in despair concerning
>the subject. He was not referring to wrecks, just general pollution. I am
>not real clear on how deep water wrecks could damage coral – over the fifty
>five years heaven knows how many thousands of vessels have gone through the
>area. BTW: who is using Kriegsmarine scrap from Scapa Flow?
>Eric Bergerud, 531 Kains Ave, Albany CA 94706, 510-525-0930

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From Thu Nov 20 07:23:47 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 09:05:21 EST
>From: Gordon Hogg
>Subject: Italian BB ROMA
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>X-Mailer: MailBook 96.02.327
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Folks:
> I’ve just been looking through Carlton Jackson’s new book _Forgotten
>Tragedy_ (Annapolis, Naval Institute Press, 1997) which is about the >sinking of
>HMT ROHNA in November 1943 by a German guided bomb (an Hs 293). He also makes
>mention of its armor-piercing “sister” bomb, the 1400X (or Fritz X), >noting its
>use against the ROMA in September 1943. So far, so good. He claims, however,
>that ROMA was sunk “after she had surrendered to the Allies and was was being
>towed into port.” The five or six accounts (U.S., British, Italian) >that I can
>trawl up immediately all indicate that she was underway–in earnest–with her
>sister BBs VENETO and ITALIA (and other ships) toward Malta when sunk.
>
>Has Jackson uncovered some new Mediterranean WWII lore, or is he somehow con-
>fusing the ROMA’s story with that of the incomplete Italian carrier AQUILA,
>which *was* subject to a tow or two. Beats me. Before I contact him (he’s
>right here in Kentucky, as it turns out) I’m just wondering if I’ve missed out
>on something all these years. I welcome any and all advice or comments.
>
> as ever,
> Gordon
>Gordon E. Hogg
>Special Collections and Archives
>University of Kentucky Libraries
>Lexington, KY 40506-0039
>606-257-9421

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From Thu Nov 20 05:41:24 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:41:27 -0500
>From: “Mark J.Perry” >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
>
>Tom Robison wrote:
>
> > Tom Lewis wrote:
> >
> > >According to an article in this week’s Navy News (Australia), > the hulks are
> > >leaking oil and killing off local fishlife and coral. The > government there
> > >are appealling to the governments who “own” the ships for help.
> >
> > This brings up the age old question, who “owns” old wrecks. Once a wreck is
> > abandoned in international waters, it is fair game for salvage.
> >
> > But some of these ships are in Solomon Island waters. Are they still
> > considered fair game for salvage, are they property of the Solomons by
> > default, or do they still belong to the country who caused them > to be there?
> >
> > Which brings up another question. If the US and Japan are responsible, are
> > they responsible for their own ships, or each other’s? I.e., the US caused
> > the Japanese ships to be sunk, and the Japanese caused the Allied ships to
> > be sunk. So, are we responsible for bringing up the Japanese ships, and
> > vice-versa?
> >
> > Still sounds to me like a scam to fleece Uncle Sugar. How much oil can be
> > leaking? Yes, I know, the Arizona is still fouling Pearl Harbor, but how
> > serious can the pollution problem be in The Slot?
>
>Warships are always considered sovereign territory wherever they sink.
>Essentially, they are military cemetaries. There was a case off Newport, RI
>where divers brought up some remains from a sunken U-Boat. The >diplomatic flap
>was pretty hot and there was a military burial with full honors in Newport.
>
>Mark Perry

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From Thu Nov 20 14:41:59 1997
>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:39:40 -0500 (EST)
>From: MEMullen@aol.com
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re:Scapa Flow Scuttle (was: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>In a message dated 97-11-20 13:10:26 EST, tjohnson@adnetsol.com (Tracy
>Johnson) writes
>
>> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Eric Bergerud wrote:
>
> > BTW: who is using Kriegsmarine scrap from Scapa Flow?
> > Eric Bergerud, 531 Kains Ave, Albany CA 94706, 510-525-0930
>
> I don’t remember who but will look it up this evening, since I made that
> statement. A short article was published in a wargame magazine within the
> last two years in either “Command” or “Strategy & Tactics.”
>
> >>
>
>
>Command, but dont have the issue. The steel is used for specialized
>radiation shielding. All steel made since 1945 incorporates minute amounts
>of fallout, so the steel from Scapa Flow is very useful for shielding. It is
>the only large source which is not a war grave.
>
>BTW, it is not clear that the scuttling was illegal. The High Seas Fleet was
>interned, and had not surrendered. This fine point of law was lost on the
>British, who machine-gunned the crews who had taken to lifeboats.
>
>Mike Mullen, ETN2, USNR(Ret)

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From Thu Nov 20 15:57:24 1997
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>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:56:59 -0500 (EST)
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>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>From: rickt@cris.com (Eric Bergerud)
>Subject: Re:Scapa Flow Scuttle (was: Warships sunk during Guadalcanal)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
> >
> >Command, but dont have the issue. The steel is used for specialized
> >radiation shielding. All steel made since 1945 incorporates minute amounts
> >of fallout, so the steel from Scapa Flow is very useful for > shielding. It is
> >the only large source which is not a war grave.
> >
> >BTW, it is not clear that the scuttling was illegal. The High > Seas Fleet was
> >interned, and had not surrendered. This fine point of law was lost on the
> >British, who machine-gunned the crews who had taken to lifeboats.
> >
> >Mike Mullen, ETN2, USNR(Ret)
> >
> >
>My command of the field of metallurgy is not encylopedic, but I am VERY
>skeptical about the radiation shielding. Iron ores or several types are very
>common and finding “uncontaminated” ore I should would be very easy. Up near
>my old stomping grounds near Ely Minnesota there is a ten story deep shaft
>into granite that was used to mine an extremely high quality ore. The tenth
>story is a popular tourist attraction (spooky) and on the 9th you will find
>DOE scientists carrying on VERY delicate experiments on sub-atomic particles
>because nine stories of granite, with a vein of iron ore running through it,
>provides some of the world’s best protection from ultra-violet rays
>(radiation) which might confuse their findings. The Scapa Flow bit sounds
>like one of those “urban legends” to me. If not, it would be one heck of a
>good bit of WWI trivia for us all to cherish.
>
>Speaking of which…did the RN REALLY machine gun German crews after they
>pulled the plug on the KM?
>Eric Bergerud, 531 Kains Ave, Albany CA 94706, 510-525-0930

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