Archive for the ‘1997’ Category

Shipboard ammunition considerations in Pearl Harbor Salvage operations

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Tue Nov 25 21:27:20 1997
>Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:07:00 -0500
>From: Brooks A Rowlett
>Organization: None whatsoever
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>To: Mahan Naval History Mailing List
>CC: Mike Potter , Andrew Toppan
>Subject: Shipboard ammunition considerations in Pearl Harbor Salvage >operations
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Mike Potter asked a week or so ago, how the considerations of live
>ammunition in the vessels salvaged at Pearl Harbor impacted the
>salvage operations. I mentined the two books that should have answers
>but could not at the time locate my copies. I have now done so.
>
>DESCENT INTO DARKNESS, Commander Edward C Raymer, USN (Ret.)
>Presidio Press, 1996, ISBN 0-89141-589-0. Raymer was a Senior Petty
>Officer at the time of Pearl, and a diving team leader. He describes
>in vivid detail much of the work on the battleships and the UTAH at
>Pearl Harbor. On OKLAHOMA specifically, he mentions that the 5 inch
>ammunition was removed from the magazines before she was raised, but
>the 14 inch was left aboard as ballast during the righting operation.
>
>On a more general basis, PEARL HARBOR: WHY>FINAL APPRAISAL, Vie Amdiral Homer N Wallin, USN (Ret.), Naval History
>Division, US Government Printing Office, 1968 has several mentions of
>ammuniton considerations in salvage operations. Perhaps most
>interesting is that there was a considerable shortage of AA capability
>inthe first month or two after the attack. Therefore, after the initial
>life-saving efforts and attemtps to preserve flotation of cruppled
>vessels such s CALIFORNIA and RALEIGH, the next priority was removal of
>AA guns and ammunition from ships which were obvioulsy not going
>anywhere for a while; reconditioning the guns and ammo, and
>installing it in shore ppositions around the harbor! Presumably this
>included .50 caliber machin guns, any 1.1 inch that may have been
>availabel, perhaps all the way up to 3 and 5 inch guns.
>
>For actual salvage operations, in upright raised vessels such as
>CALIFORNIA, diving operations during the preparations for raising
>woudl set up cofferdams around magazines or otherwise make them
>watertight, so that the ammunition could be extracted via the turret
>paths (turrets were partly disassemled, with guns removed) in the
>general process of lightening the ship prior to raising.
>
>The only specific reports of precautions against explosion seems to
>have been against toxic or explosive gases from decomposition of bodies
>and other organic material aboard ship such as food; and from volatiles
>aboard such as gasoline for aircraft or mineral spirits and the like.
>
>Reading between the lines, and based on some of my other reading of US
>ordnance manuals form the 1940’2 and 1950’s, I have the impression that
>two factors minimized concerns about ammunition in salvage: 1, the fact
>that most of the ammuniton was submerged, especially the propellant; and
>2. a feeling of confidence in the insensitivity of US ammunition fuzes.
>I don’t have a clue as to whether BB main battery ammo was stored with
>fuzes in place, but if not, shell filling explosive is indeed very
>insensitive, and moreover if there was no plug where fuzes would go,
>then water would have penetrated to the explosive anyway.
>
>In summary, concern about ammunition explosions during salvage
>operations does not seem to have required an >extra>precaustions during Pearl Harbor salvage operations. On the other hand,
>there is no clear indication in these 2 books as to just what measures
>”ordinary” precautions might entail.
>
>-Brooks A Rowlett

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(USS) MONITOR *launched*! :-)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Wed Nov 26 16:18:51 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom5.ecn.bgu.edu: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:17:37 -0600 (CST)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom5.ecn.bgu.edu
>To: CARDMODEL-L@home.ease.lsoft.com, Mahan@microwrks.com,
> MarHst-L@qucdn.queensu.ca, NavalWarR@aol.com,
> MilHst-L@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu, CONSIM-L@net.uni-c.dk,
> H-High-S@h-net.msu.edu, H-South@h-net.msu.edu
>Subject: (USS) MONITOR *launched*! 🙂
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
> OK! My cardstock model ship plan for the MONITOR is *up* on my
> webpage … at
> www.wiu.edu/users/mslrc/
>
> Follow the instructions carefully, about downloading the file
> and bringing it up on your own viewer, to print it off.
>
> The 1:200 scale is *nice* … although you can reduce it as much
> as you wish, of course.
>
> I had to redesign the hull: the fold-over approach resulted in too
> much warpage, and a waterline hull that large, flat, and thin
> warps easily, unless it is *anchored* to a perfectly flat surface
> during its building.
>
> Otherwise, MONITOR is S I M P L E to build ! ! Trust me. 🙂
>
> I’ll do MERRIMAC/CSS VIRGINIA and the game system right after
> Thanksgiving.
>
> Lou (Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu)
>
>******
>
> I have completed my design of the USS MONITOR (1862). It’s crude
> … designed for ease of assembly … but I can do more later.
>
> It is amazing how hard a time I had getting *any* drawings of MERRIMAC/
> CSS VIRGINIA. (My thanks to my Virginia source. 🙂 ) … and
> it too will be a “simplified” representation.
>
> MONITOR’s turret looks *tiny* on its deck — no wonder the “cheesebox
> on a raft” description.
>
> MERRIMAC/CSS VIRGINIA was actually wierd: Its foredeck and quarter
> deck were *AWASH* … leaving only the armored casemate as its
> flotation. I guess you could say it was a semi-submersible. 🙂
> What’s more, as it used up ammunition … ballast … its more
> vulnerable submarine hull raised up out of the water. (MONITOR
> was a *far* superior, “dedicated” design. Ericson *was* a genius.)
>
> These things really *were* straight out of Jules Verne: “Infernal
> Machines,” to be sure. And the *drama* of the story: … working
> night and day to get to sea before the enemy ‘clad.
>
> Oh, … Did I mention I’m going to be putting M&M up on my webpage
> FOR FREE? 🙂 … along with *very* simple rules, so that kids can
> do down-and-dirty-naval-wargaming-on-the-floor … of their classrooms.
> I wonder if Fred Reisinger might be interested, for ERIC, too.
> (GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR is already on ERIC … at ED 361 256.)
>
> It will be interesting to see if this popularizes the naval history
> (and simulations) at all. If nothing else, it will be a good
> ‘with-the-kids holiday project.
>
> Lou
> Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
> www.wiu.edu/users/mslrc/

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

Web site. (fwd)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Wed Nov 26 15:22:21 1997
>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:22:07 +0100
>To: mahan@microwrks.com, wwii-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu, >marhst-l@post.queensu.ca
>Subject: Web site. (fwd)
>X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.12
>X-Sender: 0611603955-0001@t-online.de
>From: BWV_WIESBADEN@t-online.de (Tim Lanzendoerfer)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>ECWMLNJ@aol.com schrieb:
> > I was reading your web site today. It is very thorough and very > interesting.
> >
> > I was wondering, do you have any information on the WWII medical ship, the
> > USS Bountiful?
> >
> > I would like as much information as possible. I was on the ship during
> > 1944-45.
> >
> > Thank you.
>
>My sources are non-existant on Auxilliaries, so I have no idea about medical
>ships (as an aside, if anybody feels the need to close the gap existing on my
>website regarding Auxilliaries, mail me!). Can anybody help this man?
>
>Thanks,
>Tim
>
>Tim Lanzendoerfer | “I have just taken on a great
>Amateur Naval Historian | responsibility. I will do my
>Email: BWV_Wiesbaden@t-online.de | utmost to meet it” – Nimitz
>—————————————————————–
> The United States Navy in the Pacific War 1941 – 1945
> http://www.microworks.net/pacific
> The ships, the men, the battles
>—————————————————————–

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Background information about the book, HOSTILE WATERS

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Oct 03 15:38:26 1997
>Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:37:55 -0600
>From: Brooks A Rowlett
>Organization: None whatsoever
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>To: Andrew Toppan ,
> Mahan Naval History Mailing List ,
> SubWar list
>Subject: Background information about the book, HOSTILE WATERS
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Background information about the book, HOSTILE WATERS, can
>currently be found at:
>
>http://www.canoe.ca:80/JamBooks/oct3_huchthausen.html
>
>The book and the HBO movie cover the sinking of the _K-219_, a
>NATO Code YANKEE – Russian Code ‘NAVAGA’/Project 667A (modified
>into a 667AU) ballistic missile submarine (SSBN/PLARB) on
>6 October 1986 in the Central Atlantic.
>
>Brooks A Rowlett
>brooskar@indy.net

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MEDIA: USS Seawolf

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Mon Oct 06 09:54:40 1997
>Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:49:34 EST
>From: EDWARD WITTENBERG
>To: MARHST-L@POST.QUEENSU.CA, MAHAN@MICROWRKS.COM,
> MILHST-L@UKANVM.CC.UKANS.EDU
>CC: wew@papa.uncp.edu
>Subject: MEDIA: USS Seawolf
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>TO ALL:
>
> The following comes from the SubWar list maintained by Ray
>Taylor at sub-list@webcom.com and was submitted by
>Royal Weaver . Ed.
>
>Edward Wittenberg
>wew@papa.uncp.edu
>
>Royal & Gull Weaver wrote:
>
> >>Subj: USS SEAWOLF MAKES TELEVISION DEBUT
>
>The Learning Channel (TLC) will feature a one hour documentary on the
>U.S. Navy’s newest nuclear powered submarine, USS SEAWOLF, as part
>of it’s new Super Structures of the World series.
>
>The documentary will premiere on TLC Sunday, Nov 9, 19997, at 8 pm
>(EST). It will feature underway scenes and interviews with the crew.
>Also it will have footage of submarines in action, and describes the
>role and missions of submarines.
>
>For those of you that have not seen the SEAWOLF, it is very impressive
>piece of machinery.
>
>Royal

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Kuching, September 1945

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Mon Oct 06 15:33:36 1997
>X-Mailer: SuperTCP Internet for Windows Version 5.1 (Mailer Version 1.02)
>From: Peter Sinfield
>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 08:36:57 cst
>Subject: Kuching, September 1945
>To: mahan@microwrks.com
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Dear All
>
>I’m doing some research on the “Kuching Relief Force” which took the
>Japanese surrender, landed occupying troops and released two and a half
>thousand prisoners of war and internees in September 1945. The
>transport and covering force was a mixed bag (in more ways than one!),
>consisting of RAN and USN vessels.
>
>I’m looking for information on the following: USS BARNES (CVE.20), USS
>WILLOUGHBY (AGP.9) and USS SC.648. I don’t have access to DANFS and the
>relevant volume of Morison is light on detail, so I’d be grateful for
>any information anyone on the list can provide.
>
>Also involved were six LCTs in the number range 1310-1331. These
>vessels are not covered in Silverstone, so the basic details (size,
>speed, armament, etc.) would also be appreciated.
>
>TIA
>
>Peter
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Peter Sinfield
>Canberra ACT AUSTRALIA
>email: sinfip@anao.gov.au
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Book review: Warships of the USSR and Russia 1945-1995

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Tue Oct 07 14:15:25 1997
>Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 12:38:59 -0700
>From: Mike Potter
>Organization: Artecon, Inc.
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I)
>To: mahan@microworks.net, MARHST-L@post.queensu.ca
>Subject: Book review: Warships of the USSR and Russia 1945-1995
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>I wrote this review for _Naval Engineers Journal_, published by the
>American Society of Naval Engineers (ASNE):
>
>Book: Alexander Sergeivich Pavlov (author) and Norman Friedman (editor),
>_Warships of the USSR and Russia 1945-1995_ [Annapolis: Naval Institute
>Press, 1997]
>
> Without access to official sources but with help from a network of
>”about 550″ fellow naval enthusiasts, in this reference handbook Russian
>naval architect Alexander Pavlov describes all Soviet and Russian
>warships launched or completed since 1945. ASNE member Dr. Norman
>Friedman, an articulate and insightful expert on modern warships,
>amplifies the translated text using western intelligence sources and
>other recent Russian publications.
> The book is arranged as were mid-century editions of _Jane’s Fighting
>Ships_, beginning with battleships and ending with auxiliaries. For a
>rough indicator of Soviet design priorities: submarines and coastal or
>inland surface ships occupy half the pages. Illustrations are large and
>plentiful. Diagrams show internal arrangements and underwater hull forms
>for submarines, information entirely hidden from the west as recently as
>1991.
> An illuminating discovery is that Soviet Russia followed ten-year
>plans for warship construction projects, which tends to confirm earlier
>estimates that the Soviet navy’s strategic mission changed very little
>from Stalin onward. I think successive Soviet regimes built this navy
>primarily to deter or defeat any potential foreign attempt to intervene
>in a Russian-controlled region should the local authorities collapse,
>and secondarily, to fight as the seaward flank should an opportunity
>arise for a Soviet military advance into the Middle East, Scandinavia,
>or wherever. The resulting fleet configuration was already suitable for
>defending ballistic missile submarine bastions when that mission was
>added around 1970.
> Pavlov reveals innovative, almost fantastic, craft such as the huge
>and heavily-armed Project 1239 surface effect ships. U.S. Navy personnel
>are impressed with the information that this book delivers but are
>somewhat disoriented by Russian weapons designations. NATO codes are
>given for ships and some missiles only.
> Exciting discoveries are offset by absences of some data. This book
>says virtually nothing about actual operations or about how
>satisfactorily seamen, naval architects, economists, and strategists
>judged these ships. How well does the aforementioned Project 1239
>perform? Poorly, say other sources; Pavlov is silent. Naval aviation and
>coast defenses are not covered. Ships’ fates are rarely stated; no doubt
>few officials even in Russia really know this dormant fleet’s true
>status today.
> _Warships of the USSR and Russia_ works primarily as an additional
>reference book for naval enthusiasts and professionals who have other
>books about these ships, their weapons, and their operations. Those
>readers may ponder whether to fault or to salute the Russians for
>actually building, at great effort in a poor nation, advanced craft of
>types that American authorities dismissed as impractical for warships.
>
>–
>Michael C. Potter, Mgr, TelCo/Govt Programs mike.potter@artecon.com
>Artecon, Inc. | | Mail: PO Box 9000
>6305 El Camino Real -|- _|_ Carlsbad CA
>Carlsbad CA 92009 >_|_( |/_>ph: 760/431-4465 >_III_ V|/ _III_ |/|_o fx: 760/931-5527
> =-| L/_| _|____L_/_|==
> ___ ________|____-===L|_LL| -==| .___ |
> ___. __I____|_[_]_______|_____[__||____[_]_|__|_=====_|\__–+====–/
>\_____/|_|__| == 963 /
>|

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

Updates on the Navy Pages!

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Tue Oct 07 07:58:49 1997
>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 16:55 MET DST
>To: harpoon@lists.stanford.edu, mahan@microwrks.com,
> wwii-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu, > marhst-l@post.queensu.ca, consim-l@listserv.uni-c.dk
>Subject: Updates on the Navy Pages!
>X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.0
>X-Sender: 0611603955-0001@t-online.de (Silvia Lanzendoerfer)
>From: BWV_WIESBADEN@t-online.de (Tim Lanzendoerfer)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Greetings,
>over the last month, a couple of updates have been made to the US Navy in the
>Pacific War pages, which have now been effected by uploading.
>Though most of these changes are mainly >cosmetical, you will now be able to view
>the entire destroyer force of the US Navy (minus >DEs). Also, a FAQ gives hints
>on some controversial issues and the Feedback section has been enlargened to
>herald more help which I received.
>The Aviation section has been restructured and now displays it’s first full
>member, the F4F Wildcat.
>The Library section has been updated. The >Updates page has been updated. The US
>Navy Departement’s crest has been build into the >opening part of the homepage.
>Several more images have been uploaded were none >had been before. The Links page
>has been reopened.
>If you would enjoy to have your page linked there, or if you already have,
>please Email me so we can discuss swapping links.
>
>That’s it for now,
>Tim
>
>Tim Lanzendörfer | “Lebt der Herr Reichskanzler noch?
>Amateur Naval Historian | Und wenn ja, was gedenkt er dagegen
>Email: BWV_Wiesbaden@t-online.de | zu tun?” – Private letter, 1905
>
> The United States Navy in the Pacific War 1941 – 1945
> http://www.microworks.net/pacific/index.htm
> The ships, the men, the battles

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

Subchasers (was: Kuching, September 1945)

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Wed Oct 08 19:12:12 1997
>Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:10:27 -0400 (EDT)
>From: MEMullen@aol.com
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Subchasers (was: Kuching, September 1945)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>jpszalay@tacl.dnet.ge.com (JOHN SZALAY) says:
>>Nothing specfic to the SC.648 however the Patrol Craft Sailors Assc.
>has this information on SC’s
>……………………………………………………………….
> 110-FOOT, WOOD HULL SUBCHASER (SC)
> >> (details snipped)
>
>I spent a 2 week cruise on one of the great lakes subchasers (USS ELY,
>PCE881, IIRC), and was wondering what the differences were between the SC,
>PC, and PCE. We still had a 3″ popgun, which we fired once (the case jammed,
>so the exercise was cancelled), and a sonar (which operator reported a
>contact while we were transiting between Sheboygan and Green Bay). The
>length of 95′ sticks in my mind, but, with advancing age… This was in the
>summer of ’68.
>
>Mike Mullen, ETN2, USNR(Ret)

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

Need credible reports of harrassment of VN vets … soon.

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Oct 10 02:36:01 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom3.ecnet.net: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:34:20 -0500 (CDT)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom3
>To: milhst-l@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu, mahan@microwrks.com,
> consim-l@listserv.uni-c.dk
>Subject: Need credible reports of harrassment of VN vets … soon.
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
>The history prof who teaches Viet Nam here has claimed that Bob
> Greene’s book HOMECOMING … describing returning Viet Nam vets
> being spit upon or verbally/etc. harrassed or mistreated … in
> college, in public, at home, etc. … is just hearsay
> exaggeration.
>
>And so … for him and selected other members of the History
> faculty here … I would appreciate any VN vets on these lists
> who experienced serious discrimination/harrassment before or
> after their VN service … or since, for it … sending me
> specific descriptions of what happened at …
>
> mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>
>If you know of other individuals or another list who could provide
> specific instances, please forward this to them.
>
>Thank you for any assistance. As the Jews tell us, “Never again!”
> *means* “Never forget!” … and there are those who don’t want
> certain things remembered.
>
>Lou Coatney
>Macomb, Illinois
>
>CONSIM-L: Let’s PLEASE not start a discussion thread on this.
> This is for a military history list. I’m only posting it on
> CONSIM-L, because I think I remember a couple of vets who
> shared their experiences, a year or two ago.

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