From Fri Sep 19 09:11:30 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom5.ecn.bgu.edu: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:10:24 -0500 (CDT)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom5.ecn.bgu.edu
>To: Marine History Information Exchange Group ,
> mahan@microwrks.com, consim-l@listserv.uni-c.dk
>cc: “Louis R. Coatney” ,
> “William D. Anderson”
>Subject: “Coincidental” submarine losses: A “Sea Tale”?
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Tom Riley wrote:
> > I don’t know about this book, but I seem to remember a french submarine
> > lost the same year in the Med and one of our ships ( sub or surface I dont
> > remember) damaged or sunk at the same time. Did the Sovs ( now former
> > Sovs) lose a sub as well?
>
>Our boat was SCORPION, I believe, Tom. And someone … either on here or
> MAHAN … (Was it you, Andrew?) … has noted and pondered this
> questionable coincidence of lost boats, before.
>
>If there *was* an undeclared undersea skirmish, you would think enough
> time and governments have passed that we could learn the truth, now.
> Is *this* why the Israelis are so nervous?
>
>Hmmm … Would “Sea Tales” want to do some *investigative* reporting?
>
>Lou
> Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

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From Fri Sep 19 17:53:41 1997
>X-Mailer: SuperTCP Internet for Windows Version 5.1 (Mailer Version 1.02)
>From: Peter Sinfield
>Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:56:52 cst
>Subject: Re: River Kwai memorial for USS Houston survivors
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Floyd Mack asked the name of the tune the POWs in the film were
>whistling.
>
>Colonel Bogey March – although Col. Bogey doesn’t rate a mention in the
>words I’ve heard to the tune!
>
>
>Peter
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Peter Sinfield
>Canberra ACT AUSTRALIA
>email: sinfip@anao.gov.au
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

From Fri Sep 19 18:06:01 1997
>X-Mailer: SuperTCP Internet for Windows Version 5.1 (Mailer Version 1.02)
>From: Peter Sinfield
>Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:08:03 cst
>Subject: Re: Another River Kwai kwiz
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Mike Potter asks:
>
> >
> >How did the US Navy (and Jane’s) discover =Houston=’s fate while war
> >was still in progress against Japan?
> >
>
>HOUSTON was sunk in Sunda Strait in company with HMAS PERTH. The
>Japanese “hell ship” RAKAYO MARU (sp?- sorry, I’m at work) was sunk by
>US subs. in the South China Sea while transporting PWs (including some
>PERTH survivors) to Japan in 1944. The PAMPANITO (sp?) picked up (IIRC
>4) ex-PERTH men, which was the first time Australia learned of the
>light cruiser’s fate. Perhaps the details of HOUSTON’s gallant last
>fight came from the same source?
>
>Peter
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Peter Sinfield
>Canberra ACT AUSTRALIA
>email: sinfip@anao.gov.au
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

From Sat Sep 20 09:48:15 1997
>Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 18:46 MET DST
>To: marhst-l@post.queensu.ca, >mahan@microwrks.com, wwii-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu
>Subject: Re: WWII USN Order of Battle (fwd)
>X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.0
>X-Sender: 0611603955-0001@t-online.de (Silvia Lanzendoerfer)
>From: BWV_WIESBADEN@t-online.de (Tim Lanzendoerfer)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
> > Thanks for the prompt reply.
> > I am trying to do a complete order of Battle of all forces in the Pacific
> > Theater on 8/7 December 1941.
> > For the Pacific Area of the USN (Pacific Fleet, Asiatic Fleet, 11th, 12th,
> > 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th Naval Districts, as well as Shore Establishments
> > on West Coats, Hawaii, Philippines, and Canal Zone)on 7 December 1941 I
> > would like:
> >
> > 1. the administrative command structure
> > 2. the tactical order of battle on 7 December 1941 (TF’s, etc.)
> > best regards
> > Leo
>
>Here we go again. Anybody who has the info Leo needs?
>
>Tim
>
>Tim Lanzendörfer | “Lebt der Herr Reichskanzler noch?
>Amateur Naval Historian | Und wenn ja, was gedenkt er dagegen
>Email: BWV_Wiesbaden@t-online.de | zu tun?” – Private letter, 1905
>
> The United States Navy in the Pacific War 1941 – 1945
> http://www.microworks.net/pacific/index.htm
> The ships, the men, the battles

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From Sat Sep 20 17:24:25 1997
>X-Authentication-Warning: ecom6.ecn.bgu.edu: mslrc owned process doing -bs
>Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:23:56 -0500 (CDT)
>From: “Louis R. Coatney”
>X-Sender: mslrc@ecom6.ecn.bgu.edu
>To: World War II Discussion List ,
> milhst-l@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu, mahan@microwrks.com,
> marhst-l@qucdn.queensu.ca, consim-l@listserv.uni-c.dk
>cc: “Louis R. Coatney” ,
> “William D. Anderson” ,
> navarrov@LEAV-EMH.ARMY.MIL
>Subject: GREAT military/naval link webpage!
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>
>At … www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/gateway.htm
>
>This is the Combined Arms Research Library’s “gateway to the Web”
> page … and it has everything imaginable listed which would be
> of any interest to military/naval science/history researchers.
>
>(Tim, the Naval Historical Center is listed there.)
>
>The “Clip Art” link did 404 — dead-end — though.
>
>Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>www.wiu.edu/users/mslrc/ (free game and cardstock model warship)
>Macomb, IL

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

From Sun Sep 21 21:15:34 1997
>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:16:40 -0600
>From: Brooks A Rowlett
>Organization: None whatsoever
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>To: “C. Patrick Hreachmack” ,
> “Jim O’Neil” , Joe Cunningham ,
> Mahan Naval History Mailing List ,
> MARHST ,
> WWOne Mailing List
>Subject: Loss of S.S. Delhi, 13 December 1911, Pt 1
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Brooks here. This posting is going to 3 appropriate mailing lists
>and a few friends who may find it of interest.
>
>Background. I have a friend here, a military collector who particulary
>likes Medal (award) groupings – the person’s set of decorations – from
>British soldiers and sailors. He recently acquired a medal group of
>some interest as follows, in that the sailor, one George Henry Spencer,
>possessed service medals for both World Wars, as well as the “Board of
>Trade Bronze medal for Saving Life at Sea”.
>
>With the medal group, my friend acquired what I take to be the actual
>service record, a large parchment sheet, which the serviceman carried
>with him from depot to depot and ship to ship, and which was filled with
>notes, evaluation reports from his ship’s Captain, and the like. The
>bare outlines of his service record are as follows: Born 24 November
>1888 Notham Parish Southampton; 5 feet 4-1/2 inches tall; his service
>recordslists “numerous tattoos” as distinguishing marks. He joined
>”St Vincent” (shore station) at his enlistment on 6 September 1904. He
>served primarily in cruisers in the pre-War and WWI periods, serving on
>the elderly cruiser LEVIATHAN during WWI. Between the wars he served in
>several QUEEN ELIZABETH and ‘R’ class battleships, going back to
>cruisers in the 1930’s. On note of interest here is that he detached
>from HMS SUSSEX (County class heavy cruiser) on 3 March 1938 to serve in
>a vessel noted as “St. Angelo II” (Hostile)” untill detaching from her
>on23 May 1938 at Pembroke Dockyard. He spent the last two years of WWII
>at HMS VICTORY presumably doing shore work, and was discharged finally
>as a Chief Petty Officer, 14 August 1945.
>
>Obviously, my first question, can anyone provide further information on
>the “ST. ANGELO II (hostile)”. Was this some blockade-running vessel
>intercepted and taken into custody during the Spanish Civil War?
>
>To continue: the package my friend bought also contained a passcard,
>and Mr. Spencer’s handwritten account of the event which resulted in
>his receipt of the Lifesaving Medal. The passcard says:
>
> “INVESTITURE BY THE KING”
>
> in larger type:
> “Board of Trade Bronze Medal
> for Saving Life at Sea.”
>
> smaller type again:
> ” TO BE DECORATED.”
>
>(signature line, with “George Spencer”)
>
>down the left side, in smaller type than elsewhere used:
>”This card to be given to the Lord Chamberlain
> on entering the presence of The King”
>
>My friend passed me a typewritten transcription of the the handwritten
>account. This presented an opportunity for me to test the optical
>character recognition (OCR) software with my scanner. In this and
>the next two posts, I am presenting the result. All scanner-induced
>errors are cleaned up; the remaining text is reproduced with the
>original spelling and grammer and punctuation or lack thereof in the
>account. It makes fascinating reading.
>
>
>” The Wreck of S.S. “Delhi” off Cape Spartel
> N.W. Coast of Africa 13th December 1911
>
>Before I start to relate what happened I must state that I was serving
>onboard H.M.S. “Duke of Edinburgh” as an able seaman. Now on the night
>of the 12th December 1911. We gave a farewell concert on the Quarter
>Deck before leaving for Portsmouth to give Xmas leave which we were all
>anxiously looking forward to it was quite late when the concert finished
>and in the service it is the custom to unrig the stage and decorations
>right away and it was near Midnight when we finished. We had not been
>turned in very long when we received an S.O.S. and the “Duke of
>Edinburgh being emergency ship it was our job to answer the call. So we
>slipped our wires and proceeded to the assistance of S.S. “Delhi” which
>had stranded off Cape Spartel.”
>
>TO BE CONTINUED……

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From Sun Sep 21 21:38:28 1997
>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:37:16 -0600
>From: Brooks A Rowlett
>Organization: None whatsoever
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>To: “C. Patrick Hreachmack” ,
> “Jim O’Neil” , Joe Cunningham ,
> Mahan Naval History Mailing List ,
> MARHST ,
> WWOne Mailing List
>Subject: Loss of S.S. Delhi, Conclusion
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>”after what seemed an eternity we were on dry land the people went on
>to a lighthouse which was near by until arrangements could be made for
>them to travel to Tangiers which was roughly 21 miles from Cape Spartel
>it must have been very trying for them as it was not very warm and no
>dry clothes to put on. Now before I go any further I must tell you that
>Rear Admiral Sir Christopher Craddock was in our boat and did some very
>gallant work indeed, not only by his good management in getting our boat
>alongside the wreck but was very instrumental after a great struggle in
>getting the Duke & Duchess safely on the beach. Shortly after we landed
>we tried to launch our boat again but found she had been stove in where
>she was thrown up on the beach so had to abandon the idea. Now being
>as the ship was ashore on shifting sand she was driven near to shore
>with practically every wave that struck her we then tried the Breeches
>Buoy which had been brought round from Gibraltar by a detachment of
>R.G.O. they arrived at Tangiers onboard H.M.S. Hampshire and completed
>the journey by land to Spartel Point. they soon had the Rocket
>Apperatus rigged several Rockets being fired before getting one on
>board. it was speedily made fast to the Foremast. On the end of the
>line attached to the Rocket is a board with instructions what to do
>printed in several languidges, after this was done it became rather
>amusing because when the Breeches Buoy was midway between ship and
>shore the occupant of the Buoy got a very severe ducking we succeeded
>in getting all the crew ashore without any further mishap while this
>work was going on a detachment of Algerian Cavalry had arrived from
>Tangiers and pitched a camp for us to shelter in during the nights we
>were there for 5 days, on the second morning the Duke of Edinburgh
>accompanied by the Good Hope proceeded to Portsmouth leaving us behind.
>it made us feel a little down hearted at the time as we were all
>anxious to get home with our friends and relations. Now the only thing
>we had to do now was to join the “London” which was lying at Anchor in
>Tangiers. this meant a journey overland a distance roughly 21 miles and
>I can tell you we did not relish that very much as we never had much
>sleep we had nothing to cover over us at night and no soft bed to lie
>on so you can imagine how we felt the evening before we left the
>Admiral informed us that the British Consul at Tangiers had made
>arrangements for ponies and mules to be sent to our camp to convey us to
>our destination. now this journey was very amusing as the animals had no
>reins or even saddles if they had been at all restive I am afraid we
>should had to have completed our journey on foot but they were very
>quiet so now we connence our journey in single line ahead I think they
>must have been trained for the job as it was very seldom one overtook
>the other their trotting days were over, the first thing we saw after we
>left the beach just over a small hill was a group of mud huts a little
>village occupied by a few Brigands and no doubt if we had not the Guard
>with us one or two would have be held for ransom these huts were not
>very large the entrances was a hole just big enough for a man to crawl
>through. they were a fine specimen of manhood a few stood by as we
>passed their bodies just like a piece of Ebony but they were quite
>harmless. we were traveling over very difficult country and it was well
>in the evening when we arrived at Tangiers. a few of us had already
>discarded our mounts and finished on foot it is not very pleaseant
>riding without a saddle On our arrival we found the Londons boats
>already waiting for us we were very soon on board and sitting down to
>good meal and we paid full justice to it most of the time we only had
>biscuits. As soon as we arrived on the ship we put to sea homeward
>bound at last. but our troubles were not over as we ran into a very
>severe storm during the night we all had to turn out and secure the
>torpedo nets where the lashings had been carried away by the sea during
>this time the ship was eased down with just enough way to keep head on
>her course we were tossing about like a cork two men were lost overboard
>during this operation. When the watch was mustered later it was found
>that a Petty Officer was missing in fact he must have been washed
>overboard as he was never seen again the ship steamed round the spot as
>near as could be. I am very doubtful if we could have saved any of them
>had we seen them we read the Service the following morning finally we
>arrived at Dover after a very dirty passage as soon as the ship was
>secured alongside we entrained to joined our ship at Portsmouth and
>thence on leave which was very acceptable nothing more of importance
>occurred until we were on our way back again we were not far from the
>Straits of Gibraltar when we passed the Good Hope conveying the Body of
>the Duke of Fife to England apparently the immersion in the water cost
>him his life we fired a salute as we passed then continued our journey
>to Gibraltar during our stay there we were presented with a signed
>photograph of the Duke & Duchess of Fife and their two Daughters we
>returned to Portsmouth and paid off on the 14th March 1912 on three of
>the boats crew reconmissioning one Midshipman one Leading Seaman and
>myself. Now in September 1912 we were giving general leave at Rosyth I
>had just returned on board from leave when I was informed that we had
>to appear at Buckingham Palace on the 12th Sept to be invested by the
>King so we journeyed to London by rail after being decorated by the
>King we proceeded on 14 days leave rejoining the ship at Portsmouth.”
>
>(End of account). My questions & Comments below.
>
>1. From first posting – what is the story behind the “St. Angelo II
>(Hostile)”?
>
>2. Rear Admiral Christopher Craddock is the same Craddock who died
>aboard the GOOD HOPE some 3 years later in the Battle of Coronel, when
>GOOD HOPE and MONMOUTH were overwhelmed and sunk by Admiral Graf von
>Spee’s German Pacific Squadron of the SCHARNHORST and GNEISENAU.
>(My reason for incluidng the World War I Mailing List in the
>distribution).
>
>3. Who specifically was the Duke of Fife, and why are the daughters
>Princesses?
>
>4. Can anyone provide further details of the vessel S.S. DELHI,
>and her loss?
>
>5. What is the “R.G.O.” organization which brought out the rockets and
>breeches buoy gear?
>
>6. Are there any French accounts of this rescue, associated with FRYANT
>(which my CONWAY’S ALL THE WORLD’S WARSHIPS 1860-1905 says should be
>FRIANT)?
>
>6. And of course, any other questions or comments that various
>listmembers may have come to mind as a result of this information.
>for one thing, my friend with these has noted that he believe only some
>500 of these Board of Trade Bronze Medals were awarded; perhaps someone
>else can say over what period these were in distribution and what
>replaced them?
>
>-Brooks A Rowlett
>brooksar@indy.net

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

From Sun Sep 21 21:19:12 1997
>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:20:36 -0600
>From: Brooks A Rowlett
>Organization: None whatsoever
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>To: “C. Patrick Hreachmack” ,
> “Jim O’Neil” , Joe Cunningham ,
> Mahan Naval History Mailing List ,
> MARHST ,
> WWOne Mailing List
>Subject: Loss of S.S. Dehi, Pt 2
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>CONTINUE FROM PREVIOUS POST GEORGE SPENCER’S ACCOUNT OR RESCUE
>OPERATION SIN LOSS OF S.S. DELHI
>
>”We arrived there between 3 and 4 in the morning 13th December. Owing
>to the heavy surf that was running it was absolutely impossible to get
>her off so the only thing we could do was to get the passengers off as
>quick as possible. We had a hard job to get to the ship as the sea was
>breaking right over her we managed to get alongside with only 3 oars
>left but we replaced them from the stranded vessel. We were not along
>in this rescue work as we found on arrival that a French cruiser had
>also answered the S.O.S. her name was “Fryant” and her boat done some
>very good work indeed but unfortunately came to grief which is
>explained below. As soon as we got alongside the “Delhi” we put all the
>women and children into her only remaining boat the others were smashed
>by the sea as they were being lowered it was heartaching to see little
>children pass into the boat wearing lifebelts as big as themselves I
>shall never forget that boat being towed away by the Frenchman it got
>almost round the stern of the ship when the tow line carried away. our
>hair stood on end expecting every minute to see the boat capsize with
>its human load but owing to the good management of the French boat she
>was able to pick her up again and succeeded in getting her through the
>surf and safely alongside the “Duke of Edinburgh” the Officers gave up
>their cabins to enable them to get their clothes dried as it is needless
>to say they had a good soaking our ship took them to Gibraltar to await
>another Liner to continue their journey. Now the French boat after
>putting the people onboard our ship returned to make another attempt but
>fate was dead against her, for as she tried to come around the stern of
>the Wreck a tremendous great surf broke right over her putting her fires
>out you must understand she was steam driven not a pulling boat like
>ours. after having her fires put out she dropped her anchor riding head
>on to the sea until she could get her fires going again she finally
>succeeded, slipped her anchor, but before she had gone many yards the
>sea picked her up and turning a complete somersault dissappeared but
>fortunately only one of the crew were lost his body was washed ashore
>the following morning the remainder of the crew managed to reach the
>shore safely. Now it came to our turn all this time we were being
>tossed up and down the ships side which was not very comfortable we
>dropped alongside of her accomodation ladder to embark the few
>passengers that were still on board they were the Duke and Duchess of
>Fife their two Daughters Princess Alexandra and Princess Maud and a
>Civilian Doctor these persons were the last to leave the ship with the
>exception of her crew we had great difficulty in getting them into the
>boat but we succeeded at last and pushed off from the ship our
>intention was to tow a grass line ashore bury the end to enable us to
>hand ourselves back to the ship again and get the crew ashore but before
>we got very far the boat was swamped. the Princesses were very plucky
>through it all they tried to bale the boat out as we were fighting
>hard to beach her. we managed to get about half way to shore, when a
>great surf threw us all out of the boat it was impossible to reach her
>again as she was to far away so we had to strike out for the shore “..
>….
>
>TO BE CONCLUDED IN NEXT POSTING

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

From Sun Sep 21 23:35:52 1997
>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:21:23 -0700
>From: Tracy Johnson
>Organization: Answers
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: River Kwai memorial for USS Houston survivors -Reply
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>The origin of the tune sounds good. Since it was stated the tune began
>before the war, it begs the following questions:
>
>Were there words to the music before the war or not?
>
>If there were, then what were the original words before the wartime
>ones?
>
>If there weren’t, then is it a typical case of words being added to an
>existing popular tune as in the case of the U.S. National Anthem?
>
>–
>Tracy Johnson
>ANSWERS, Manhattan Beach, CA
>Minister of Propaganda, Justin Thyme Productions
>tjohnson@adnetsol.com
>”Semper Pollus”
> ADC-2239-5531

Posted via email from mahan’s posterous

From Mon Sep 22 11:40:24 1997
>X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1
>Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:56 -0400
>From: Dane Hartgrove
>To: mahan@microworks.net
>Subject: Re: River Kwai memorial for USS Houston survivors -Reply
> -Reply
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>Reply-To: mahan@microworks.net
>
>Tristan Jones, in _Heart of Oak_, his memoir of coming of age in the
>World War II British navy, mentions marching to the Col. Bogey march
>during his days in training. The tune must have been a common one in
>the Andrew; doubtless the words/lyrics changed depending on the
>occasion/degree of ribaldry allowed.
>
>Dane Hartgrove

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