Archive for the ‘1997’ Category

Was Vietnam “a war between classes in America”? — Article-R

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Tue Jul 22 09:37:17 1997
>Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:40:17 -0700
>From: TMO/TX
>Reply-To: swrctmo@iAmerica.net
>Organization: Kestrel/SWRC/OAssoc
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I)
>To: mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: Re: Was Vietnam “a war between classes in America”? — Article-R
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
> > > As requested:
> >
>Spoken loudly and well, Lou, but unfortunately to this forum, less
>gullible than the Congressman’s audience.
>
>While the nature of the conflict in Viet Nam (or more likely the faulty
>methodolgy of our troop de/employments) may have increased casualty
>rates among the minorities or the poor, the casualty rates among Naval
>aviators or Marine 2LTs were no less “excessive” (as they have been in
>most wars).
>
>As one who spent his entire active duty in the Atlantic and Med, I don’t
>grieve for not going, but I do painfully remember the loss of my best
>man and two former roomates, college graduates from “affluent” families,
>one with a masters, all pretty close to the “Best and the Brightest.”
>On the other hand, the miserable record of all too many of our
>”academic” and “entertainment” communities has not resulted in their
>receiving the public opprobrium and rejection so well deserved.
>
>Just as my father would never purchase a Japanese-made product as long
>as there were any viable alternative, his two long years attached to the
>CHINATs providing him a with as sound a basis as exists for prejudice,
>personal experience, and my mother would never after the war trade with
>a grocer grown rich on the black market, I attempt to make conscious
>buying decisions relevant to the political and social posturing of some
>of my contemporaries. To wit…I’ll stay up late to watch Henry Fonda
>once more portray Mr. Roberts, but wouldn’t piss on Jane if her guts
>were on fire (or sentiments like unto same).
>
>On the other hand, no public “mea culpa”, no pillory or punishment, no
>painful experience could comprise adequate retribution for the grotesque
>and by God only, if then, barely forgivable sins of Robt. MacNamara.
>There’s a likely candidate for two-blocking at the mainyard of
>”Constitution” while all hands are mustered in the gangways to witness
>punishment.
>–
>Kestrel Syndicate – Oliver Associates – Southwest Regional Council
> “Quid consilium cepit…”

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Touched with Fire

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Thu Jul 31 15:21:44 1997
>Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:24:45 -0700
>From: TMOliver
>Reply-To: swrctmo@iAmerica.net
>Organization: Kestrel/SWRC/Oliver
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I)
>To: mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: Re: Touched with Fire
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>TMOliver wrote:
> >
> > Bill Riddle wrote:
> > >
> > > Having quoted the book (in a post on BBs), let me give my initial
> > > impressions of Touched with Fire, Eric Bergerud (Viking, 1996):
> > >
> > > Having now read 67 pages, my initial impression is that this is a
> > > valuable book.
> >
>While I have not read (but look forward to) the book and my immoderately
>modest evaluation of the skills of most flag/general officers are on
>record here, for whatever reasons, accident, blind luck,
>political(saving A/NZ), ‘cuz we wuz there, etc., the campaign
>accomplishedsomething that Central Pacific island-hopping never could,
>the creation of an immensely bloody, draining meat grinder for ships,
>a/c, and trained personnel in which disease, malnutrition and steel
>combined to eat the heart from the Japanese military.
>
>Aside from the results of the awesome attrition, the campaign did
>represent a thrust which the Japanese could not fail to oppose, a sword
>pointed at their fuel supplies without which the conduct of anything
>other than a suicidal defense of the home islands was temporary if not
>impossible.
> —
>
>Far too long for a sig, but personally compelling…
>
>
>
>Having been to see the elephant, contemplated the impermanence of
>
>
>
>existence, gazed upon the Apocalypse, and smelled Death’s rotting
>
>
>
>breath close at hand, one siezes reward from the simplest of
>
>
>
>pleasures…the sound of the surf, the cool, musty bite of a well-brewed
>
>
>
>ale, the briny tang imparted by a fresh oyster, the dark heart of a
>
>
>
>carefully aged whisky, the incomparable taste of the first slash of rare
>
>
>
>beef, the aggressive impact of a powerful pinot, Summer’s first real
>
>
>
>tomato, the smoky complex fire of chipotle sauce, the combined reek of
>
>
>
>gunpowder and working dogs across an Autumn pasture, the blessed
>
>
>
>combination of green chile and tomatillo, the ectasy of lump or backfin
>
>
>
>crabmeat (from blues), fresh Gulf Snapper or the season’s first inshore
>
>
>
>shrimp, all prepared with Spartan simplicity, the shadowed glimpse of a
>
>
>
>nipple within the gap of a loose blouse, the “Scent of a Woman” (not the
>
>
>
>movie, the experience), the astringent bite of lime-dosed gin and tonic
>
>
>
>in a tropical twilight, the lung-filling tingle of the first drag on a
>
>
>
>post-coital Camel, smoked salmon and a good Sunday newspaper….among
>
>
>
>these are found ample joys to counter inevitable misfortune and grief.
>
>
>
>Oliver Sends/OPIMMEDIATE

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Constitution

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Wed Jul 23 21:15:45 1997
>X-Sender: tcrobi@pop.mindspring.com
>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:18:55 -0500
>To: mahan@microwrks.com
>From: Tom Robison
>Subject: Re: Constitution
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>Bill Riddle wrote-
>
> > If you haven’t yet seen it … find a copy of “All Hands” June 97
> > issue. It has a very nice series of articles on Constitution: her
> > current crew, their training (turns out USCG trained them in Eagle!),
> > the 200 year history (short version), and Oliver Wendell Holmes 1830
> > poem that made this 1997 event possible (“Aye, tear her tattered
> > ensign down!”).
>
>I read O.W. Holmes poem many years ago and have not seen it since. Can
>someone post it here? Thanks.
>Tom
>
>
>Tom Robison
>Ossian, Indiana
>tcrobi@mindspring.com

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Re[2]: Was Vietnam “a war between classes in America”? — Ar

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Wed Jul 23 21:15:27 1997
>X-Sender: tcrobi@pop.mindspring.com
>Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:18:55 -0500
>To: mahan@microwrks.com
>From: Tom Robison
>Subject: Re[2]: Was Vietnam “a war between classes in America”? — Ar
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>Bill Riddle wrote
> >
> >… Robt. MacNamara. There’s a likely candidate for two-blocking at the
> >mainyard of “Constitution” while all hands are mustered in the gangways
> >to witness punishment.
>
>Why are you being so merciful toward him, Bill?
>
>
>Tom Robison
>Ossian, Indiana
>tcrobi@mindspring.com

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Announcements

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Thu Jul 24 07:57:09 1997
>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 97 16:53 MET DST
>To: mahan@microwrks.com, wwii-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu
>Subject: Announcements
>X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.0
>X-Sender: 0611603955-0001@t-online.de (Silvia Lanzendoerfer)
>From: BWV_WIESBADEN@t-online.de (Tim Lanzendoerfer)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>Good day, Ladies and Gentlemen.
>Today I write to you because I would like to announce the publication of the
>first part, and so to speak “demo version”, of a set of internet >pages I am in
>the process of creating, on the subject of the US Navy in the Pacific War.
>What I need is people who have the time to check spelling (less important) or
>context errors (most important).
>Also, if you are pleased with what you’ve read, I need someone who >hasd server
>space left over to afford the volume of data I want to put up – >you’ll read what
>I want to put up when you visit my pages at
>
>http://home.t-online.de/home/BWV_Wiesbaden/pacific.htm
>
>Thanks,
>Tim
>
>
>Tim Lanzendoerfer | “England expects that
>Amateur Naval | every man will do his
>Historian | duty” – NELSON
>http://home.t-online.de/Home/BWV_Wiesbaden/index2.htm

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Constitution

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Thu Jul 24 16:28:11 1997
>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 18:27:17 -0500
>From: Brooks A Rowlett
>Reply-To: brooksar@indy.net
>Organization: nonexistent
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC)
>To: Tom Robison
>CC: Mahan Naval History Mailing List
>Subject: Re: Constitution
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>The Poem “Old Ironsides” is available on the internet, linked from the
>Navy’s USS COnstitution fact sheet.
>
>For general information, see:
>http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ships/oldiron.html
>
>or
>
>http://www.ussconstitutionmuseum.org/
>
>For the Constitution’s official home page, see:
>
>http://www.ncts.navy.mil/homepages/constitution/
>
>which has a two step link to the poem, (“history”, then “Old
>Ironsides”), or go directly to the poem, at:
>
>http://www.ncts.navy.mil/homepages/constitution/poem.htm
>
>In addition, for a fun site, see
>
>http://www.oldironsides.com/
>
>now, in recognition that not everyone who has email has www
>access, here is the text of poem and other material, from the link
>above:
>
>
>
>
> Aye, tear her tattered ensign down!
> Long has it waved on high,
> And many an eye has danced to see
> That banner in the sky;
> Beneath it rung the battle shout,
> And burst the cannon’s roar;-
> The meteor of the ocean air
> Shall sweep the clouds no more!
>
> Her decks, once red with heroes’ blood,
> Where knelt the vanquished foe,
> When winds were hurrying o’er the flood,
> And waves were white below,
> No more shall feel the victor’s tread
> Or know the conquored knee;-
> The harpies of the shore shall pluck
> The eagle of the sea!
>
> Oh, better that her shattered hulk
> Should sink beneath the wave;
> Her thunders shook the mighty deep,
> And there should be her grave;
> Nail to the mast her holy flag,
> Set every threadbare sail,
> And give her to the god of storms,
> The lightning and the gale!
>
> Oliver Wendell Holmes, 1830
>
>Somewhere which I couldn’t find was another Navy site which had
>the additional text whihc originally accompanied the poem. This
>explained that the decision had been made to scrap the vessel and that
>the poem was an appeal for retention.
>
>-Brooks A Rowlett
>brooksar@indy.net

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Off topic: Help with scans

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Jul 25 08:48:15 1997
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 17:44 +0100
>From: BWV_WIESBADEN@t-online.de (Tim Lanzendoerfer)
>X-Sender: 0611603955-0001@t-online.de (Silvia Lanzendoerfer)
>Subject: Off topic: Help with scans
>To: mahan@microwrks.com, wwii-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>Sorry for bothering the folks who are not interested.
>Could someone please answer the following question off-line to me:
>How do I best scan black-and-white photographs and keep the space >used by them
>under 70KB WHILE keeping them in a viewable form?
>
>Tim

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Have a nice time!

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Jul 25 11:05:12 1997
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 20:05 +0100
>From: BWV_WIESBADEN@t-online.de (Tim Lanzendoerfer)
>X-Sender: 0611603955-0001@t-online.de (Silvia Lanzendoerfer)
>Subject: Have a nice time!
>To: mahan@microwrks.com, wwii-l@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>Ladies, gentlmen,
>starting Sunday, I will be on a three weeks vacation, as some >already know. In
>this time I will not be able to be reached in any way. I tell you this today
>because I can’t be sure if I will be able to use Email tommorow.
>Now, I wanted to thank all of you who answered one or two or three of my
>questions for your help. If there’s anything else you might want to >add, please
>write me nevertheless, I’ll get every mail once I’m back.
>
>Yours,
>Tim Lanzendoerfer

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Was Vietnam a class war?

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Jul 25 07:58:50 1997
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:01:23 -0700
>From: TMO/TX
>Reply-To: swrctmo@iAmerica.net
>Organization: Kestrel/SWRC/OAssoc
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I)
>To: “Louis R. Coatney”
>CC: mahan@microwrks.com
>Subject: Re: Was Vietnam a class war?
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>Louis R. Coatney wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, James H. E. Maugham wrote:
> > > While I’ve already applauded Lou for his efforts, upon > reflection I have to
> > > wonder what the findings would be if broken down by MOS.
> > >
> > > My personal recollection is that amongst those of us who were actually
> > humping
> > > the Boonies, the socio-economic demographics were generally > blue collar or
> > > lower. I’m excluding LTs from this as, personally, we never > kept an LT around
> > > long enough for him to be statistically significant.
> >
> > James,
> > This is why *death* statistics are the most important indicator
> > … and 2 out of my 3 RIHS’64 classmates killed in VN had fathers who
> > owned their own businesses.
> > And LTs *should* be included, of course.
> >
> > > I anchored one end of the bell curve for this group by being > “middle class”
> > and
> > > having a college background. My “peers” were most often to be > found back in
> > > base camp or amongst the Saigon Rangers pushing papers.
> >
> > Which gets us to another crucial point: *What* is “middle class”?
>
> > > Sorry for ranting.
> >
> > You weren’t. It’s a valid discussion point motivated by strong
> > beliefs from personal experience/remembrance … which is what motivated
> > *me* to get into this, in the first place.
> >
>
>Just as current and future historians (will) study the “Vietn Nam (old
>guy/two word preference) Experience” exhaustively (read: “to death”), US
>military demographics, a subject worthy of substantial research and
>comment, will receive short shrift from inquiring academics. All too
>often, the perspective and “subjective gloss” will be in support of one
>or another sociological or political purpose, in Viet Nam’s case, the
>”War of the Poor” having been established as the politically correct
>position by the Left (while the Right, with not much greater
>justification, takes great comfort in the “Misfought by Politicians/High
>Command” view, not unlike the “Betrayed” syndrome widespread in post WWI
>Germany).
>
>While those at either end of the political spectrum can take potshots,
>cheap and real, at the conduct of affairs/operations/commitment/the
>whole schmeer, and those of us who fall into the “a pox on both your
>camps” middle are left with little but sadness, the loss of friends and
>contemporaries and a lot of guessing as to “what might have been”, the
>harsh reality of the conflict seems to support James’s position, “line”
>units filled with a steady stream of draftees/recruits less than
>representative of a “cross-section” of society (What the Hell ever that
>may have been), rear echelons better able to read and write (and less
>”poor”), grad students/draft dodgers/etc. lazing at home/Canada/Sweden,
>and too many “otherwise eligible” young males staying ahead of the draft
>board in a myriad of approaches, from waiting outside maternity wards to
>enlisting in special naval rerserve units (like one I commanded) which
>”creamed” available talent, promising a year of weekends followed by a 2
>year tour (50/50 chance of a “haze gray and underway” environment).
>
>James’s view does reflect a traditional “American” blue collar
>perspective of officers, although he gives LTs a bum wrap, forgeting the
>greater sin of Viet Nam, the piss-poor puking practice of “ticket
>punching” among field grade ranks which guaranteed an absence of unit
>morale, esprit d’corps and accomplishment.
>
>He, however, missed the greatest pitfall which guarantees for the future
>justification for the “poor man’s” war perspective. The failure
>(entirely political/fear of retribution at the ballot box) to call to
>the colors National Guard and Reserve units in near total numbers
>(including me, perish the thought!) goes down in history as a great sin
>of commission, far more damaging to this country than any other factors
>in the prosecution of the war (with the possible exception of 12 month
>tours, a device insuring poor unit performance). Win, lose or draw, the
>American experience in Viet Nam would have been far briefer, and the
>demographics of the troops involved wohave better mirrored our society
>in general.
>
>There’s nothing new about the perspective of a “class war”. Americans
>have clamored about the subject in nearly every conflict including the
>Revolution. A quaint portion of the “bottom line”, however, is to be
>found among the long lists of “blue collar” or even “societally
>deprived” Americans for whom wars and commissions obtained in a variety
>of fashions including unit attrition, election, OCS, aviation training,
>etc., became to launching platform for amazing social and economic
>mobility (along with a political career or two).
>
>The US experience seems quite different that that of our British
>neighbors (who seem almost if not more class conscious and position
>immobile today than they were in 1800). The new PM certainly appears as
>a “Gentleman” (traditional? self-made? imitation with good tailor?)
>whose career never included the wearing of overalls, while our current
>guy in the White House is but a few steps removed from the skirtless
>abode of a sharecropper, with the ethics of a mule-trader and somewhat
>lecherous sexual proclivities (although it turns out that even old Abe
>Lincoln was somewhat less the country bumpkin than his image-makers
>would have had us believe and as politically opportunistic as any modern
>figure).
>
>In the final analysis, Vietnam may have promoted the
>social/economic/political mobility of a number of “poor men”, just as
>had happened in previous American wars. Certainly, the war protests
>povided a similar avenue for ambitious, skilled or manipulative younkers
>to get ahead.
>
>As an aside on social mobility…
>
>Where else but the US could we invent our closest thing to a Royal
>Family only a couple of generations removed from Boston wardheelers with
>good connections in the whisky business, evidence of the short route up
>from no curtains (and no windows) to lace curtains to the sad and silly
>chronicles of the sexual and marital misadventures of the younger
>progeny who all seem capable of being elected to a group of safer seats
>than any of the famous “rotten boroughs”?
>
>In retrospect (and sadly), too many of us may have initially viewed Viet
>Nam through imprecise and out of date tinted spectacles, another “Good
>Little War” or “The Only War We Had” as had been Mexico in 1846 or the
>Spanish Conflict in 1898, misunderstanding and poorly appreciating
>earlier lessons of land conflict in Asia, and all too willing to ride
>down the freeway of both guns and butter (a road which turned out to
>have an awfully high toll). To top off the pit of our misperceptions,
>we became possessed of an insufferable vice, the belief that having
>occasionally changed history, we were now so powerful and all-wise as to
>be able to alter it at will.
>
>And then there were those gems of naval/military tactics and strategy…
>
>Who remembers that day when the main batteries of the 8″ gun cruisers
>haveing proved ineffective against Charley, we brought back a battleship
>to demonstrate that 16″ guns could be less/equally/even more
>ineffective?
>–
>Tom Oliver
>Kestrel Syndicate – Oliver Associates – Southwest Regional Council
> “Quid consilium cepit…”

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Was Vietnam a class war?

Friday, January 2nd, 2009

From Fri Jul 25 12:03:44 1997
>Comments: Authenticated sender is
>From: “James H. E. Maugham”
>Organization: RST Environmental Services, Inc.
>To: mahan@microwrks.com
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:03:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Was Vietnam a class war?
>Reply-to: CaptJHEM@waterw.com
>Priority: normal
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1)
>Precendence: bulk
>Sender: mahan-owner@microworks.net
>
>On 25 Jul 97 at 10:01, Tom Oliver wrote:
>
> > James’s view does reflect a traditional “American” blue collar
> > perspective of officers, although he gives LTs a bum wrap,
>
>Not really Tom. My total of 19 months in country was all spent with “special”
>units and the REPO/DEPOT never failed to send us totally inexperienced 2LTs
>fresh out of OCS with life spans akin to a fruit fly. As an OCS >dropout, I can
>state categorically that we were never given the best advice we could have
>received with regard to longevity, to wit:
>
>Sit down, shut up and LISTEN!!!!
>
> > forgetting the greater sin of Viet Nam, the piss-poor puking practice of
> > “ticket punching” among field grade ranks which guaranteed an > absence of unit
> > morale, esprit d’corps and accomplishment.
>
>With a few minor exceptions, Field Grade officers were NEVER seen in >the field,
>unless you include orbiting at 5K feet in a Huey. Col. Hackworth was a rare
>exception, with whom I was very fortunate to work once, and who gave >me my most
>treasured award by referring to me as a warrior.
>
> > He, however, missed the greatest pitfall which guarantees for the future
> > justification for the “poor man’s” war perspective. The failure (entirely
> > political/fear of retribution at the ballot box) to call to the colors
> > National Guard and Reserve units in near total numbers (including > me, perish
> > the thought!) goes down in history as a great sin of commission, far more
> > damaging to this country than any other factors in the prosecution of the
> > war (with the possible exception of 12 month tours, a device insuring poor
> > unit performance). Win, lose or draw, the American experience in Viet Nam
> > would have been far briefer, and the demographics of the troops involved
> > wohave better mirrored our society in general.
>
>Yes, but you have to remember that the war was primarily a training >ground for
>officers and men who would soon be sent into the Fulda Gap! Nixon >and MacNamara
>were of the firm belief that we would very possibly have to face Soviet tanks
>in Europe during the late 60’s.
>
>As to Slick Willy, better to have him screwing a few fillies than >having Tricky
>Dick screwing me! 🙂
>
>James
>
>”Who wishes to give himself an abundance of trouble,
>let him equip these two things, a Ship and a Woman.
>No two things involve more bother, for neither is sufficiently adorned!”

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